Discussion:
Dolphin Smalltalk open-sourced...
(too old to reply)
Saša Janiška
2015-12-29 11:57:13 UTC
Permalink
...with MIT license, so I wonder if that will have some impact on
further development of Pharo?

Iirc, Dolphin can produce stand-alone Windows executable, but maybe
something else can be utilized as well?

Here is the link with: http://object-arts.com/gettingstarted.html

Sincerely,
Gour
--
The humble sages, by virtue of true knowledge, see with equal
vision a learned and gentle brāhmana, a cow, an elephant, a dog
and a dog-eater.
Serge Stinckwich
2015-12-29 12:26:37 UTC
Permalink
I dunno if they will be any impact on Pharo, because having a software
open-source is great, but you also need
a benevolent dictator and a community to give a direction ;-)

If the licence is MIT, this is great, because Pharo could reuse some
parts of Dolphin Smalltalk without any problems.

Regards,
Post by Saša Janiška
...with MIT license, so I wonder if that will have some impact on
further development of Pharo?
Iirc, Dolphin can produce stand-alone Windows executable, but maybe
something else can be utilized as well?
Here is the link with: http://object-arts.com/gettingstarted.html
Sincerely,
Gour
--
The humble sages, by virtue of true knowledge, see with equal
vision a learned and gentle brāhmana, a cow, an elephant, a dog
and a dog-eater.
--
Serge Stinckwich
UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC)
Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk
http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/
Ben Coman
2015-12-30 03:28:15 UTC
Permalink
Really interesting news. I was curious for some history and the
reason for the open sourcing, since back in 2007 Andy Bower said [1]
"It is with great regret and more than a touch of sadness that I have
to announce that Blair and I have made the decision to stop selling
and developing Dolphin Smalltalk. We will continue to distribute the
free version of Dolphin X6 indefinitely but, as from today, we will
not be selling the Professional version. [...] There will no doubt
be a number of you who would suggest that we Open Source Dolphin. Of
course, you are free harbour such opinions and to discuss the idea on
the newsgroup but please do not expect us to be persuaded. It simply
will not happen! Both Blair and I dislike the Open Source movement
intensely and we would rather see Dolphin gradually disappear into the
sands of time than instantly lose all commercial value in one fell
swoop."

but then even Microsoft has significantly changed its stance on open source [2].

It seems there was initial discussion in Feb 2014 of pledges to open
source Dolphin [3], followed by ObjectArts proposal July 2014 for
$10-$15k crowd-funding [4], but in the end it seems they bypassed that
and Dec 2014 went straight to an MIT release [5].

I don't think we should take this as an opportunity to simply raid
their coffers and ideally aim there would be some mutual beneficial to
reward their move to open source.

As I understand it, Dolphin is Microsoft only but using 32-bit Win32
API rather than .NET, although it can run under Wine[6], so Pharo has
some advantages there - particularly considering the mobile arena.

I doubt its practical to merge the two products since I *guess* much
of Dolphin's attractiveness is its tight coupling to Microsoft, but
since they've got this "ph" in their name, I can't help imagining a
product with 64-bit Cog-Spur-Sista + lower level Pharo infrastructure
+ Dolphin GUI - that might be named "Dolpharo" ;)

cheers -ben

[1] http://forum.world.st/Terrible-News-Dolphin-is-Dying-td1408648.html
[2] https://redmondmag.com/articles/2015/09/01/changing--dna.aspx
[3] https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/comp.lang.smalltalk.dolphin/open$20source/comp.lang.smalltalk.dolphin/BMkKJ5bNxzQ/cFAm-mpTUgkJ
[4] https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/comp.lang.smalltalk.dolphin/0EIhRyLBwa4/2weQUjDqf9YJ
[5] https://groups.google.com/d/msg/comp.lang.smalltalk.dolphin/YOxRJ_Q9BKo/E8WEZ-cXCAAJ
[6] http://www.object-arts.com/blog/files/904294e27cec4b8dff96422f3197f603-5.html



On Tue, Dec 29, 2015 at 11:26 PM, Serge Stinckwich
Post by Serge Stinckwich
I dunno if they will be any impact on Pharo, because having a software
open-source is great, but you also need
a benevolent dictator and a community to give a direction ;-)
If the licence is MIT, this is great, because Pharo could reuse some
parts of Dolphin Smalltalk without any problems.
Regards,
Post by Saša Janiška
...with MIT license, so I wonder if that will have some impact on
further development of Pharo?
Iirc, Dolphin can produce stand-alone Windows executable, but maybe
something else can be utilized as well?
Here is the link with: http://object-arts.com/gettingstarted.html
Sincerely,
Gour
--
The humble sages, by virtue of true knowledge, see with equal
vision a learned and gentle brāhmana, a cow, an elephant, a dog
and a dog-eater.
--
Serge Stinckwich
UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC)
Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk
http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/
Dimitris Chloupis
2015-12-29 12:30:24 UTC
Permalink
wow nice, thats more than welcomed.

I probably should have seen that coming when they posted about making
dolphin available to macos through wineskin, they are definetly interested
into porting to other platforms.

Obviously it will have some impact, maybe we can borrow some code from them
like interfacing with DLLs which is Estabans area of interest , and
generally to bring better support for windows.

Its not a threat to Pharo itself because we are mostly MacOS and Linux
developers and we support these platforms quite well.

Standalone executables its not a big deal, you can rename the pharo
executable to anything you want and heavily customise your image already
with pharo. Standalone apps are a reality since before pharo was created ,
from squeak days.

Personally I think taking some code for native support for the windows
platforms, like DLLs, some window specific libraries etc would be nice.
Generally I think both projects will continue to co exist happily and
helping each other as Pharo hapily coexists with Squeak and Cuis. We are
one big happy that is about to get a bit bigger.

So Thank you Object Arts!!!!
Post by Saša Janiška
...with MIT license, so I wonder if that will have some impact on
further development of Pharo?
Iirc, Dolphin can produce stand-alone Windows executable, but maybe
something else can be utilized as well?
Here is the link with: http://object-arts.com/gettingstarted.html
Sincerely,
Gour
--
The humble sages, by virtue of true knowledge, see with equal
vision a learned and gentle brāhmana, a cow, an elephant, a dog
and a dog-eater.
Saša Janiška
2015-12-29 13:27:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dimitris Chloupis
Standalone executables its not a big deal, you can rename the pharo
executable to anything you want and heavily customise your image
already with pharo. Standalone apps are a reality since before pharo
was created , from squeak days.
What about GUI builders for the desktop apps? Someone on #pharo
mentioned that Pharo is way behind Dolphin in this regard?


Sincerely,
Gour
--
Those who are on this path are resolute in purpose,
and their aim is one. O beloved child of the Kurus,
the intelligence of those who are irresolute is many-branched.
Dimitris Chloupis
2015-12-29 13:51:25 UTC
Permalink
yeap thats a huge deal for me at least , I will be most likely be making
GUI designers in the not so far future for pharo it will be a help to have
some open source code to assist me.

I am pretty sure we can all find some very useful code to borrow from
Dolphin for a ton of things. So there is no doubt this is a big win for us.
We will have to wait and see :)
Post by Saša Janiška
Post by Dimitris Chloupis
Standalone executables its not a big deal, you can rename the pharo
executable to anything you want and heavily customise your image
already with pharo. Standalone apps are a reality since before pharo
was created , from squeak days.
What about GUI builders for the desktop apps? Someone on #pharo
mentioned that Pharo is way behind Dolphin in this regard?
Sincerely,
Gour
--
Those who are on this path are resolute in purpose,
and their aim is one. O beloved child of the Kurus,
the intelligence of those who are irresolute is many-branched.
Tudor Girba
2016-01-04 16:13:08 UTC
Permalink
Hi,

I am trying to run it, but I have troubles starting it.

I have a Windows 7 64 bit.

I did the following:
1. I downloaded the repo from:
https://github.com/objectarts/Dolphin
2. I then tried to run Dolphin7.exe and BootDCE.cmd, but in both cases I got the message:
“Missing msvcp120.dll”
3. I then installed this dll as described here:
http://dllwindows.com/download-msvcp120-dll/
4. I retried to Dolphin7.exe and BootDCE.cmd, but now I get
“The application was unable to start correctly (oxc000007b)”

Does anyone know what is wrong with what I am doing?

Cheers,
Doru
Post by Saša Janiška
...with MIT license, so I wonder if that will have some impact on
further development of Pharo?
Iirc, Dolphin can produce stand-alone Windows executable, but maybe
something else can be utilized as well?
Here is the link with: http://object-arts.com/gettingstarted.html
Sincerely,
Gour
--
The humble sages, by virtue of true knowledge, see with equal
vision a learned and gentle brāhmana, a cow, an elephant, a dog
and a dog-eater.
--
www.tudorgirba.com
www.feenk.com

"Things happen when they happen,
not when you talk about them happening."
Ferlicot D. Cyril
2016-01-04 16:19:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tudor Girba
Hi,
I am trying to run it, but I have troubles starting it.
I have a Windows 7 64 bit.
https://github.com/objectarts/Dolphin
“Missing msvcp120.dll”
http://dllwindows.com/download-msvcp120-dll/
4. I retried to Dolphin7.exe and BootDCE.cmd, but now I get
“The application was unable to start correctly (oxc000007b)”
Does anyone know what is wrong with what I am doing?
Cheers,
Doru
--
www.tudorgirba.com
www.feenk.com
"Things happen when they happen,
not when you talk about them happening."
Hi,

Did you followed the tutorial
http://www.object-arts.com/gettingstarted.html ?

«Double-clck BootAll.cmd. A console window will open and
sequentially spawn the individual boot jobs. Depending on the heritage
of your Windows environment, you may see a failure message saying that
MSVCRT120.DLL cannot be found. If this is the case on your system, you
will need to download and install the Visual Studio 2013 Redistributable
components. Since Dolphin is a 32 bit application you’ll only need
vcredist_x86.exe. Once done, try the BootAll again.»

If you still have problems with it I can check on my window 7 64bits
when I will be at home.
--
Cyril Ferlicot

http://www.synectique.eu

165 Avenue Bretagne
Lille 59000 France
Esteban A. Maringolo
2016-01-04 17:19:57 UTC
Permalink
I cloned the repo and ran BootAll.cmd and it ran right away in my
Windows 7 64 bit computer.

Regards!

Esteban A. Maringolo
Post by Tudor Girba
Hi,
I am trying to run it, but I have troubles starting it.
I have a Windows 7 64 bit.
https://github.com/objectarts/Dolphin
“Missing msvcp120.dll”
http://dllwindows.com/download-msvcp120-dll/
4. I retried to Dolphin7.exe and BootDCE.cmd, but now I get
“The application was unable to start correctly (oxc000007b)”
Does anyone know what is wrong with what I am doing?
Cheers,
Doru
Post by Saša Janiška
...with MIT license, so I wonder if that will have some impact on
further development of Pharo?
Iirc, Dolphin can produce stand-alone Windows executable, but maybe
something else can be utilized as well?
Here is the link with: http://object-arts.com/gettingstarted.html
Sincerely,
Gour
--
The humble sages, by virtue of true knowledge, see with equal
vision a learned and gentle brāhmana, a cow, an elephant, a dog
and a dog-eater.
--
www.tudorgirba.com
www.feenk.com
"Things happen when they happen,
not when you talk about them happening."
Pierce Ng
2016-01-04 22:45:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Esteban A. Maringolo
I cloned the repo and ran BootAll.cmd and it ran right away in my
Windows 7 64 bit computer.
The same.

I looked into moving source back and forth, and found an implementation of
Smalltalk Interchange File (SIF) by Eric Arseneau from the year 2000. The
Squeak version files in on Pharo 4 (and Squeak 5) and files some code out
successfully (after a small change in symbol handling). Similarly the Dolphin
version files in but fails to import a Squeak file-out, because Dolphin doesn't
understand {} in Dictionary class>>newFromPairs:. Next step is to look at the
compiler I suppose. Down the rabbit hole...

SIF is found here: http://www.pocketsmalltalk.com/sif/. Pocket Smalltalk,
now that's a very cool thing.

Pierce
H. Hirzel
2016-01-05 12:45:13 UTC
Permalink
Thank you for the report, Pierce.

Did you use this
http://www.pocketsmalltalk.com/sif/contents/sifall.zip link (labeled
'sifall'.zip) to download the code?

--Hannes
Post by Pierce Ng
Post by Esteban A. Maringolo
I cloned the repo and ran BootAll.cmd and it ran right away in my
Windows 7 64 bit computer.
The same.
I looked into moving source back and forth, and found an implementation of
Smalltalk Interchange File (SIF) by Eric Arseneau from the year 2000. The
Squeak version files in on Pharo 4 (and Squeak 5) and files some code out
successfully (after a small change in symbol handling). Similarly the Dolphin
version files in but fails to import a Squeak file-out, because Dolphin doesn't
understand {} in Dictionary class>>newFromPairs:. Next step is to look at the
compiler I suppose. Down the rabbit hole...
SIF is found here: http://www.pocketsmalltalk.com/sif/. Pocket Smalltalk,
now that's a very cool thing.
Pierce
Pierce Ng
2016-01-05 16:05:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by H. Hirzel
Did you use this
http://www.pocketsmalltalk.com/sif/contents/sifall.zip link (labeled
'sifall'.zip) to download the code?
Yes, that's the zip file I used.

Pierce

Ferlicot D. Cyril
2016-01-04 19:17:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tudor Girba
Hi,
I am trying to run it, but I have troubles starting it.
I have a Windows 7 64 bit.
https://github.com/objectarts/Dolphin
“Missing msvcp120.dll”
http://dllwindows.com/download-msvcp120-dll/
4. I retried to Dolphin7.exe and BootDCE.cmd, but now I get
“The application was unable to start correctly (oxc000007b)”
Does anyone know what is wrong with what I am doing?
Cheers,
Doru
--
www.tudorgirba.com
www.feenk.com
"Things happen when they happen,
not when you talk about them happening."
Hi again,

I tried on my Windows 7 64bits.

I cloned the Dolphin repo, launched BootAll.cmd then opened DPRO.img7
with Dolphin7.exe and everything worked out of the box.

I already had Visual C++ 2013 on my computer. Do you have it installed ?
(https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=40784)
--
Cyril Ferlicot

http://www.synectique.eu

165 Avenue Bretagne
Lille 59000 France
Tudor Girba
2016-01-04 20:25:35 UTC
Permalink
Hi,

Indeed, something seems to have gone wrong with previous Visual C++ installation. I now reinstalled it and it worked.

Thanks for the help.

Cheers,
Doru
Post by Ferlicot D. Cyril
Post by Tudor Girba
Hi,
I am trying to run it, but I have troubles starting it.
I have a Windows 7 64 bit.
https://github.com/objectarts/Dolphin
“Missing msvcp120.dll”
http://dllwindows.com/download-msvcp120-dll/
4. I retried to Dolphin7.exe and BootDCE.cmd, but now I get
“The application was unable to start correctly (oxc000007b)”
Does anyone know what is wrong with what I am doing?
Cheers,
Doru
--
www.tudorgirba.com
www.feenk.com
"Things happen when they happen,
not when you talk about them happening."
Hi again,
I tried on my Windows 7 64bits.
I cloned the Dolphin repo, launched BootAll.cmd then opened DPRO.img7
with Dolphin7.exe and everything worked out of the box.
I already had Visual C++ 2013 on my computer. Do you have it installed ?
(https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=40784)
--
Cyril Ferlicot
http://www.synectique.eu
165 Avenue Bretagne
Lille 59000 France
--
www.tudorgirba.com
www.feenk.com

"To lead is not to demand things, it is to make them happen."
Esteban A. Maringolo
2016-01-04 20:35:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tudor Girba
Hi,
Indeed, something seems to have gone wrong with previous Visual C++ installation. I now reinstalled it and it worked.
Look at the Aspect class and implementors of
#publishedAspectsOfInstances, that's very close to what the
GTInspector provides in a way I find easier to define (maybe because
my mind is shaped by it :-) )

Regards,

Esteban A. Maringolo
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